- 2025 Page Up Annual Conference
The Undertow of Influence: Understanding Today's Media Ocean | 2025 Page Up Annual Conference
October 30, 2025
The Undertow of Influence: Understanding Today’s Media Ocean unpacked how the balance of media power is shifting from traditional outlets to a fragmented ecosystem of creators, podcasts, and platforms like YouTube. Speaker Max Tani of Semafor shared insights on how audiences now discover, trust, and act on information—and what that means for communicators navigating this new current.
Key Takeaways:
AI-generated, some errors may appear
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Hey, guys.
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How's it going? I'm Max Tani.
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I'm going to stand not behind this
because I think I'm too short for that.
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I am the media editor at Semafor.
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I write a weekly newsletter
which publishes on Sundays.
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About the changing media landscape.
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As previously mentioned, I'm also
the co-host of the Mixed Signals podcast.
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In the parlance of, people of our time.
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Please feel free
to, like and subscribe and download that.
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I wanted to talk today about the ways
in which the media is changing
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and essentially how that's impacting
the information,
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that we receive
and how that's shaping the way
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that we think
and changing the way that we think.
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And so I thought that that would be,
pretty interesting place to start.
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So, as a frame for this conversation,
I wanted to use this tweet,
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that I saw a few months back,
which really got me thinking
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and kind of pissed me off.
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But then also, I kind of thought, well,
wait, what's pissing me off about this?
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It's intentionally provocative.
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Tweet from this guy Adam FaZe,
who runs gymnasium to creative agency.
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And, I'm just going to read
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you can see it on the screen,
but I'm going to read it anyway.
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He says,
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Emily Sundberg asked me for my anonymous
hot take on the state of the media
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right now about myself, because
I don't think mine's that anonymous.
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He said, magazines are dead. TV is dead.
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Hollywood is dead.
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TBN is more important than CNBC.
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Emily Sundberg is more important
than Vanity Fair.
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Nick Fuentes is more important
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than Fox News, and X is, unfortunately,
the center of the universe now.
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I think a lot of
this is like half true, half not true.
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It's intended, obviously,
to be provocative,
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but there's some really interesting
details here that I think are worth,
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are worth exploring.
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And so I wanted to kind of go piece
by piece through each of these points
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and then talk a little bit
about how it might be impacting the,
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things
that you guys are having to deal with.
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On a day to day basis as, communications
and public relations professionals.
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So let's start with magazines are dead.
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It's a nice little warm up here.
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So, are they, if you look at it on on
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the surface, magazines are just a lot
less influential than they used to be.
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This is data from YouGov.
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It says that only 6% of Americans engage
with digital magazine
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content each day,
and only 4% read a printed magazine.
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That's not very many people,
obviously, compared to, decades past.
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But if you drill down a little bit,
you can see that
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people are clearly still engaging
in some sort of way.
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They may not even really realize it.
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But 22% say that they are engaged weekly
on digital, compared to 17% on print.
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And 32% of Americans
read a digital magazine at least once
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a month, while 30% read print.
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They might just be checking it out
in the checkout line of the grocery store.
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That's something that still happens.
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That's a habit that people still have.
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Obviously,
it's a lot less, it's it's a lot less,
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important and influential and a part
of people's daily lives than in the past.
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But clearly they're still coming up
against some of this stuff.
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And, you know,
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you actually see that in the businesses
of some of these publications as well.
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A lot of legacy,
magazines are still doing, quite well.
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And I've actually seen some growth,
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in recent years,
the Atlantic has had a banner year wired.
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Both of them have reported, I believe,
that they're over a million subscribers.
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Still. That's up a lot.
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Meredith, which
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is, the formerly the magazine conglomerate
renamed itself People Inc.
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They're actually leaning in to,
people magazine, which is their brand.
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So clearly they think that these brands
still have a lot of, importance
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in people's lives. And they're still,
they're still influential.
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So I think on this one, the results are a
little mixed to Adam's point.
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TV is dead. All right. Now we are cooking.
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Is it obviously,
we all know, people reason.
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I mean,
I imagine most people have it still,
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but can you guys just raise your hand
and tell me who still pays
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for cable,
like actual actual cable subscription?
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Okay, so actually a lot of people
have cut the cord even in this room.
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Cable viewership is in terminal decline,
and that's obviously
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the thing
that's driving a lot of the big changes
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that we're seeing right now
in, in Hollywood and with corporate media.
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You know, we've seen NBC universal,
announced earlier this year
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that it was spinning off its cable assets
into a different company called Versant.
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They believe that
those are just in terminal decline.
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They don't have anything to do
with those, discovery.
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Warner Brothers discovery
is also in the process of doing this.
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We don't really know where that's
going to land, because they're, you know,
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obviously in this very interesting,
very public M&A situation.
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But both of these companies
have seen the writing on the wall,
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when it when it comes to cable and that's
really impacting other businesses.
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And as you see here in the next point,
you know, for the first time,
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this is from Nielsen, from the
from the first time over the air broadcast
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networks accounted for less
than 20% of viewer, TV viewing, in June.
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So that means that people are not only,
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not watching cable anymore,
and they have not only cut the cord
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when it comes to cable,
but also broadcast,
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which was still staying pretty strong,
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despite cable's decline, is also now
seeing those same kind of drops.
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But if you take a look over here,
you see that tens of millions of people
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are still tuning in for broadcast
television.
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We've got the Nielsen ratings from earlier
this year.
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CBS is just cleaned up
when it comes to these shows like tracker.
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The Matlock
reboot wasn't even aware of that one.
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15 million people, apparently,
tuned in over the course of a month.
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So, you know, there's still a
lot of people who are watching television,
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though.
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They're mostly pretty old,
and they are watching, live sports.
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So 83% of adults say they watched
a show via a streaming service,
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which means that, you know, most people
are paying for something, or they're
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or they're watching, free, free streaming,
whereas
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only 36% say that they still subscribed
to cable or satellite at home.
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And there's actually obviously
a lot of overlap between that.
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28% say they're consuming all of it.
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That's me. I'm in that 28%.
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And a lot of this stuff is being driven
by live TV, which is the way obviously,
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that these many of these companies
are trying to, compete with streaming.
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The NFL is just this
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just enormous juggernaut which, destroys
pretty much everything else.
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In, in broadcast
television and even in streaming,
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Hollywood is dead.
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So this is like slightly adjacent,
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and, like the last two points, it's
just a little bit more complicated.
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So if you look at revenues from May 1st
to August 24th, that's the peak season,
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for for
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for for moviegoing,
it reached, revenues reached
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3.553 billion,
which was actually up from 2024.
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But it's down
from the pre-pandemic levels.
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These are the people who've, gone
and paid to see this movie, which is,
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Jurassic World Rebirth,
which did $344 million.
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I cannot believe that
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people keep seeing these things,
but they do in very large numbers.
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Lilo and stitch was the, was the highest
grossing film of the summer?
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Did over a billion globally,
but it's the only 2025 release
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from a Hollywood studio
to do over a billion
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a few years ago,
particularly before the pandemic, that
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the movie business was regularly crossing
that threshold, with, a lot of,
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serialized,
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movies, you know, Marvel,
Marvel kind of stuff.
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And, as you see down here in descending
order, there's, some other movies which,
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like How to Train Your Dragon,
the live action version, which did,
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626 million Superman, 600 million,
and right on down the list.
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So I think, you know, to say
that the movie business is being,
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you know, eaten by the attention
economy, and it's dead again.
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It's just a little bit mixed.
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It's obviously not at its peak.
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The movie business has to compete
these days with everything
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that's on our phones and everything,
that people can just watch on their own.
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At home, they're basically in the pool,
with the rest of us,
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in the media business.
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Let's move on here.
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And actually, if you look at it,
young people still are interested
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in seeing movies
they're interested in the experience is,
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as you can see here, down here,
UCLA does a great survey every year.
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On teen viewership
and where kind of things are going.
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And if you ask adolescents what activity
do they prefer,
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they still say the number one activity
they still say is going to see a movie
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during opening weekend. That's over.
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Go to a music concert, which is,
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I guess a response that, is, is allowed.
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And if you see that Gen Z also,
says that they are more than their, adult,
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counterparts, they say 31% of them
say that they go see a movie in theaters.
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Now, part of this is the fact that young
people just have a lot more time,
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to kind of mess around and do whatever.
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So they have time to go to say
that they want to go to the movies.
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But people still young people are still
saying that they like the experience
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of going to the theaters.
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And so I think to say
that Hollywood is dead, cuts against,
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what a lot of young people are saying,
which is that
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they really enjoy still going to see it.
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So, it's, once again,
a little bit murkier.
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I'm just going to kind of skip these,
because they're very silly.
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TBN is more important than CNBC.
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How many of you guys in this room
know what TV is?
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Have you heard of it?
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Okay, a few people, it's
this new streaming
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service is very,
very hot in, Or it's a new streaming show.
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It's very hot in tech and AI media.
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It's these two guys who basically
launched, live stream, three hour a day,
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program built around
kind of the, the hot AI market.
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And, they've gotten all kinds of really,
really, big, huge guests.
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They've had Mark Zuckerberg
and a number of other guests on,
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to break news, but only a few people,
a few hundred people actually watch a day.
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Those few hundred people,
though, do happen to be,
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the leaders of these big, big
AI companies.
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And so it's on the radar
of a lot of these people.
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Nick Fuentes is more important
than Fox News.
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It's obviously garbage.
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You know, for those of you who don't know
who Nick Fuentes is, lucky you.
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But, Fox News, it should be noted
that Fox has really defy
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is one of the only places
that's defied, the trends impacting
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pretty much everybody else in media
in terms of viewership.
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Their linear, television
ratings continue to be, through the roof.
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They dropped a little bit.
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But there's millions and millions
of people, watching, Fox News every day.
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As is evidenced by Fox's earnings earlier
this morning, which said that they'd,
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they were
they had record breaking, ad sales,
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last year, primarily driven by Fox.
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So, just a little caveat
to this, to this other,
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streaming declines or,
viewership declines.
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Emily Sundberg it's more important
than Vanity Fair. I want to do this again.
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How many people in this room
know who Emily Sundberg is?
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Two. One. One person.
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It's Emily is a very.
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If you surveyed my friends, people my age,
I think, you know,
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in my social circle, in New York,
they would say they probably engage
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with Emily more than they ever engage
with Vanity Fair.
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But she still gets a little.
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She's essentially a news influencer.
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She writes a daily newsletter about.
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It's kind of a mix of, like, New York
gossip
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and cool restaurants
and media news and whatnot.
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And it is just very it is a must read
for a bunch of people in this
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very specific, young, professional,
New York aspirational, kind of lane.
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But I thought that she was
she would be a really good, example,
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for us to use, in the category
of news influencers.
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She breaks a little bit of news
in her newsletter and on a podcast
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that she, is working on in her Instagram.
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And, people, The New York Times
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and other places
kind of have to have to chase this,
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and she represents just this growing
and interesting category of people
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who I'm sure that some of,
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some of whom you engage with on a day
to day basis, which are news influencers,
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and it's worth digging down into
who news influencers are
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and how people are consuming them.
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So according to Pew Research,
1 in 5 Americans say
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they regularly get news from news
influencers on social media.
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20% of people say that they are,
getting some sort of news
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from someone who is outside
of a traditional, news organization,
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which is interesting,
but there's some nuances and caveats
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in the data,
which is that there's no actual consensus
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to the to these folks on who and news
influence.
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News influencer actually is.
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So per this Pew data, the influencers
our respondents most often named included
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Philip DeFranco.
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He's a YouTuber, Tucker
Carlson, Ben Shapiro
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under the Desk
News, and Carlos Eduardo Espina.
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But as you can see here, DeFranco is only,
volunteered by 3% of people.
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So the vast majority of these people
are getting news influencer
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or getting news content from very,
very different, content
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creators,
many of whom are middle, mid-sized.
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So if you see this, the TikTok data
actually kind of bears that out.
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So just 10% of creator accounts
that US adults
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follow on TikTok
have more than 1 million followers.
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The largest share of the creator accounts
is between 50,000 and 500,000.
00:12:46:05 - 00:12:51:07
Half a million, which make up, 42% of the
creator accounts that Americans follow.
00:12:51:07 - 00:12:52:12
So basically,
00:12:52:12 - 00:12:55:53
most people who are getting their
their information from news influencers
00:12:55:53 - 00:12:59:45
are getting it from very different
individuals, people who are, very tailored
00:12:59:45 - 00:13:03:53
to who are addressing very specifically
the type of information, and their needs.
00:13:03:53 - 00:13:05:56
There's not just this like mass consent.
00:13:05:56 - 00:13:06:38
There's not 1
00:13:06:38 - 00:13:11:07
or 2 of these news influencers
who are dictating, dictating everything.
00:13:15:08 - 00:13:17:01
And this actually, this this dovetails
00:13:17:01 - 00:13:18:58
with something else
which I think is really interesting,
00:13:18:58 - 00:13:23:46
which is that a large number of adults say
that they take into account influencer,
00:13:24:18 - 00:13:29:27
opinions when they're making a purchase,
75, particularly young people, 75%
00:13:29:44 - 00:13:34:02
of 18 to 25 year olds say
that social media influencer input related
00:13:34:02 - 00:13:37:02
to products or services is influential
in their final product decision.
00:13:37:02 - 00:13:39:35
They see something
that an influencer posts on Instagram.
00:13:39:35 - 00:13:41:03
They think, oh,
maybe I'm going to buy that.
00:13:41:03 - 00:13:42:40
But only 1 in 10 U.S.
00:13:42:40 - 00:13:46:09
adults think that most purchase related
input from social media
00:13:46:09 - 00:13:47:14
influencers is genuine.
00:13:47:14 - 00:13:51:27
So most of the information, most people
are assuming that influencers are,
00:13:51:42 - 00:13:55:44
in some way, you know, monetarily
being compensated for this stuff.
00:13:55:44 - 00:13:58:44
They're still taking their advice,
but they think that there's some sort of,
00:13:59:11 - 00:14:02:13
murkiness at least around
whether these people are being paid
00:14:02:13 - 00:14:04:58
or whether they're genuine
or some combination of both,
00:14:04:58 - 00:14:06:48
which I think is really interesting.
00:14:06:48 - 00:14:08:48
X is,
unfortunately, the center of the universe.
00:14:08:48 - 00:14:11:16
Now, I think that this is obviously false.
00:14:11:16 - 00:14:12:10
It's YouTube.
00:14:12:10 - 00:14:16:18
YouTube is just,
obviously the platform of,
00:14:16:32 - 00:14:19:29
it's the platform
certainly of the last several years.
00:14:19:29 - 00:14:22:01
And I think it's probably the platform
of the decade in the same way that
00:14:22:01 - 00:14:25:57
Facebook and Instagram, were the platforms
of last of the last decade.
00:14:26:31 - 00:14:30:14
And you just see that number, borne out
in the number of people
00:14:30:14 - 00:14:33:36
who are consuming YouTube
content on a daily basis.
00:14:33:36 - 00:14:35:43
It's used by 85% of people.
00:14:35:43 - 00:14:38:43
It's fairly uniform among different age
cohorts,
00:14:38:52 - 00:14:41:36
age, gender, education, income, race.
00:14:41:36 - 00:14:44:14
Every across the board,
everybody is consuming YouTube.
00:14:44:14 - 00:14:47:17
A person over 65 is much more likely
00:14:47:17 - 00:14:50:17
to consume stuff on YouTube versus
something on Instagram.
00:14:50:35 - 00:14:53:28
And, you know, as, as,
as it's shown here in 2024,
00:14:53:28 - 00:14:56:55
85% of adults reported,
reported that they've used YouTube.
00:14:56:55 - 00:14:58:03
That exceeds the share.
00:14:58:03 - 00:15:00:27
Who said they use
Facebook 70%, Instagram 50.
00:15:00:27 - 00:15:03:03
And those are the next
two biggest platforms.
00:15:03:03 - 00:15:04:44
Just some more data on YouTube.
00:15:04:44 - 00:15:07:18
Across age groups,
majority of adults are using it.
00:15:07:18 - 00:15:10:45
More than 9 in 10 adults
under 50 say that they use the site.
00:15:11:21 - 00:15:14:28
Even among or even among adults
65 and older,
00:15:14:28 - 00:15:18:00
who are generally less likely
than their younger counterparts to use
00:15:18:00 - 00:15:22:09
various online platforms,
65% are using the video sharing platform.
00:15:22:45 - 00:15:25:10
The numbers for teens is just staggering.
00:15:25:10 - 00:15:28:35
9 in 10 U.S teens ages 13 to 17
say that they use YouTube.
00:15:28:55 - 00:15:32:42
73% say they use it
daily and 15% say they use the platform
00:15:32:42 - 00:15:36:03
almost constantly,
which is a little scary.
00:15:37:26 - 00:15:39:01
And this compares with,
00:15:39:01 - 00:15:41:45
this this is much bigger than TikTok,
which gets a lot more press.
00:15:41:45 - 00:15:45:40
People associate younger generations
with TikTok, but these people are younger.
00:15:45:40 - 00:15:48:20
People are using YouTube a lot more.
00:15:48:20 - 00:15:51:20
And as you can see, they're also using it
in a very interesting way.
00:15:51:40 - 00:15:54:04
And I think that this is an interesting
point, maybe for people in this room.
00:15:54:04 - 00:15:58:03
I found it to be interesting, which is
that news from Facebook is dropping.
00:15:58:03 - 00:16:01:24
We all know this Facebook changed
its algorithm to Deprioritized news
00:16:01:35 - 00:16:03:00
several years ago.
00:16:03:00 - 00:16:06:39
So. And more people now say that they are
getting their information from YouTube.
00:16:06:57 - 00:16:10:54
It's up from 23% in 2020 to 32% in 2024.
00:16:11:03 - 00:16:12:03
This is really deliberate.
00:16:12:03 - 00:16:13:50
YouTube has actually really leaned
into this.
00:16:13:50 - 00:16:16:02
About a year ago,
I started to notice the shift,
00:16:17:12 - 00:16:18:47
after Covid, during Covid, YouTube
00:16:18:47 - 00:16:21:51
didn't really want to be associated
with news content very much.
00:16:22:00 - 00:16:23:17
It was very risky.
00:16:23:17 - 00:16:26:42
They were involved in some kind of complex
and sticky conversations
00:16:26:51 - 00:16:30:28
around, platform safety,
particularly around the Covid vaccine.
00:16:30:55 - 00:16:34:17
And Trump with January 6th,
I believe that they had booted Trump.
00:16:34:40 - 00:16:37:27
From the platform and they were booting
people who had, misinformation.
00:16:37:27 - 00:16:38:50
They didn't really want to talk about it.
00:16:38:50 - 00:16:39:37
They didn't like it.
00:16:39:37 - 00:16:43:25
But about a year ago, they opened up more
and they said, actually a lot of people
00:16:43:25 - 00:16:46:25
are getting news content from YouTube,
and we're very, very proud of that.
00:16:47:53 - 00:16:50:10
The thing that's driving
it is podcasts on TV.
00:16:50:10 - 00:16:54:02
You can see this great article
on the right written by, semafor.com
00:16:54:02 - 00:16:57:20
and this, garbage article on the left
reporting, much
00:16:57:54 - 00:16:59:44
much of the same information from variety.
00:16:59:44 - 00:17:00:59
They just had
a better headline than I did.
00:17:02:29 - 00:17:05:34
But much of this is driven, by podcast
growth.
00:17:05:47 - 00:17:08:39
YouTube earlier
this year released a released, stat
00:17:08:39 - 00:17:10:15
that I found to be really staggering.
00:17:10:15 - 00:17:13:27
They said,
it says this headline says YouTube says
00:17:13:27 - 00:17:16:56
it now has more than 1 billion
monthly viewers of podcast content.
00:17:16:56 - 00:17:19:56
So 1 in 9 people and 1 in 8 people,
00:17:20:33 - 00:17:23:26
across the globe, supposedly are consuming
00:17:23:26 - 00:17:27:36
some sort of podcast content,
via YouTube every month.
00:17:27:36 - 00:17:30:36
Now, when I asked them
some follow up questions about,
00:17:31:06 - 00:17:34:06
digging into that data
and how they measured it, what what was,
00:17:34:20 - 00:17:37:06
what was a view of a podcast,
I don't really want to talk about it.
00:17:37:06 - 00:17:40:06
I imagine that this number is,
they're doing some creative,
00:17:40:42 - 00:17:43:43
kind of accounting here, but I
but I think it's certainly is notable.
00:17:43:43 - 00:17:46:08
And it lines up with, what we've seen,
what I,
00:17:46:08 - 00:17:49:57
what I see anecdotally for our podcast,
we have some episodes that just,
00:17:50:58 - 00:17:54:20
a tremendous number of people
are consuming on YouTube, which was never,
00:17:54:40 - 00:17:57:39
what we were intending,
but is, is a happy surprise.
00:17:58:57 - 00:18:01:12
But there's something interesting
and there's an interesting caveat here
00:18:01:12 - 00:18:02:25
that I think is worth,
00:18:02:25 - 00:18:05:38
is worth noting as well, which is that
the podcast economy has reached,
00:18:06:21 - 00:18:08:48
a more mature stage,
00:18:08:48 - 00:18:12:03
about ten years ago
when podcasting was really taking off in,
00:18:12:40 - 00:18:16:56
in, in wake of, serial
and some of these other, shows,
00:18:17:28 - 00:18:20:55
you would look at the podcast charts
in the sense that they existed at all,
00:18:21:07 - 00:18:25:53
and they would be moving up and down
every month in a real, meaningful way.
00:18:25:59 - 00:18:28:41
People were discovering
new shows that they liked,
00:18:28:41 - 00:18:31:53
and these things were shooting to the top,
and then dropping off,
00:18:32:07 - 00:18:32:56
in the same kind of way.
00:18:32:56 - 00:18:33:23
There were a lot more
00:18:33:23 - 00:18:36:50
narrative podcasts that were doing
that were short run, that were doing this.
00:18:37:17 - 00:18:39:39
Now there's a there's a big difference.
00:18:39:39 - 00:18:41:07
Many of the top podcasts today
00:18:41:07 - 00:18:44:59
are the same ones that top the charts
in 2023 and 2024,
00:18:44:59 - 00:18:49:11
which suggests that consumption habits,
the consumption, the habit is solidifying.
00:18:49:11 - 00:18:50:35
People have the shows that they like,
00:18:50:35 - 00:18:53:08
and they're not really that interested
in finding that many new ones.
00:18:53:08 - 00:18:56:20
If you look, this is this is the,
these are
00:18:56:20 - 00:18:59:20
the charts from, I believe, 2023 or 2024.
00:18:59:29 - 00:19:01:40
And if you look here, they're very
they're very similar.
00:19:01:40 - 00:19:04:40
Joe Rogan, the, diary of a CEO.
00:19:05:13 - 00:19:08:25
Some of these other shows are,
the daily is on here.
00:19:08:25 - 00:19:09:26
Yeah. Crime junkie.
00:19:09:26 - 00:19:11:57
These,
the charts have stayed exactly the same.
00:19:11:57 - 00:19:15:19
That wouldn't have been the case, if we
were looking at that, several years ago.
00:19:17:46 - 00:19:20:22
There's, increasingly,
00:19:20:22 - 00:19:25:53
we see this, very interesting competition
between YouTube and Spotify.
00:19:25:53 - 00:19:28:46
YouTube and Spotify
remain the top platforms for podcasting.
00:19:28:46 - 00:19:31:13
Apple is kind of twiddled its thumbs here.
00:19:31:13 - 00:19:32:15
They used to be the number.
00:19:32:15 - 00:19:35:09
They used to have the largest market
share by far of podcasting.
00:19:35:09 - 00:19:39:30
Now they're, much smaller than YouTube,
and, and Spotify.
00:19:39:46 - 00:19:42:35
But the notable thing here
is that YouTube,
00:19:42:35 - 00:19:45:19
the YouTube podcast
audience is much more volatile.
00:19:45:19 - 00:19:47:26
They're doing the, on YouTube.
00:19:47:26 - 00:19:50:26
This, podcasts are moving up
and down in a much,
00:19:51:09 - 00:19:54:07
I mean, a much more, accelerated fashion.
00:19:54:07 - 00:19:54:52
The reason for that
00:19:54:52 - 00:19:55:17
is that
00:19:55:17 - 00:19:59:00
the consumption of podcasts on YouTube
is much more driven by the algorithm,
00:19:59:20 - 00:20:03:50
whereas, Spotify and Apple podcast
consumption is being delivered to you.
00:20:03:50 - 00:20:06:14
People subscribe and download,
00:20:06:14 - 00:20:08:27
their favorite podcasts,
and they kind of stick there.
00:20:08:27 - 00:20:11:59
They're not finding that many new podcasts
via Apple and Spotify,
00:20:12:01 - 00:20:15:42
whereas YouTube is actively feeding,
new shows to people.
00:20:15:42 - 00:20:18:40
And that's kind of really accelerating,
discovery.
00:20:18:40 - 00:20:22:07
It's the thing that as a podcaster,
I like the most about YouTube, we reach,
00:20:22:07 - 00:20:25:55
I just we reach many more people
who otherwise don't listen to the show.
00:20:25:55 - 00:20:26:49
They might like a guess
00:20:26:49 - 00:20:30:37
that we have on, and YouTube is helping,
power our discovery.
00:20:30:37 - 00:20:33:37
And, that's that's a real advantage
that they have, over
00:20:33:53 - 00:20:36:55
that, that the platform has over
Spotify and Apple.
00:20:37:40 - 00:20:40:43
But if you see here
the categories that tend to do well,
00:20:41:05 - 00:20:45:11
on YouTube and in podcasting in general,
it's about 5 or 6,
00:20:45:35 - 00:20:49:56
it's politics, comedy, true crime,
wellness, and self-help.
00:20:50:03 - 00:20:53:58
These are the categories that if you look
at the top 100 podcasts on YouTube,
00:20:54:13 - 00:20:56:01
Spotify and Apple, these are
00:20:56:01 - 00:20:58:08
these are the categories that
are, that are dominating,
00:20:59:17 - 00:21:00:27
in tremendous fashion.
00:21:00:27 - 00:21:02:49
I've got, sports is interesting.
00:21:02:49 - 00:21:05:49
Some sports podcasts do quite well.
00:21:05:56 - 00:21:09:19
But it doesn't dominate that category in
the same way that politics and comedy do.
00:21:09:21 - 00:21:11:30
We've got the Kelsey brothers
up at the top here,
00:21:11:30 - 00:21:13:45
but that show is not necessarily
a sports show.
00:21:13:45 - 00:21:16:45
It's, you know, more of
a, more of a celeb driven show.
00:21:17:44 - 00:21:21:18
And that's actually quite different than,
than other platforms as well.
00:21:21:29 - 00:21:24:07
One of the things that's
really interesting about TikTok creators
00:21:24:07 - 00:21:28:15
on TikTok tend to post less about politics
as they're following grows, whereas,
00:21:28:44 - 00:21:32:49
podcasters tend to actually post more
about politics, news, current events.
00:21:33:14 - 00:21:35:20
It's just a it's a different habit.
And it's a really interesting thing.
00:21:35:20 - 00:21:37:27
I don't really have it
necessarily a theory on it
00:21:37:27 - 00:21:40:58
other than that
that content is, it has kind of superfans,
00:21:40:58 - 00:21:44:59
whereas the, you know, TikTok algorithm
kind of washes the content over you.
00:21:47:39 - 00:21:48:56
So my view on
00:21:48:56 - 00:21:52:01
this, traditional media
is obviously in decline.
00:21:52:16 - 00:21:55:25
But it's very complicated, older
and more educated,
00:21:55:50 - 00:22:00:21
consumers are still, consuming
traditional media, including print or,
00:22:00:23 - 00:22:03:23
you know, words on a page,
which I still like.
00:22:03:44 - 00:22:06:44
And some cable and broadcast television,
00:22:07:49 - 00:22:10:31
individuals,
like some of the people that we mentioned,
00:22:10:31 - 00:22:15:06
have increasing parity, with institutional
with some institutional outlets there
00:22:15:06 - 00:22:16:18
obviously,
00:22:16:18 - 00:22:19:56
some exceptions to this, including The New
York Times and some others which have,
00:22:20:22 - 00:22:23:22
which have grown, but that doesn't mean
that the institutions,
00:22:23:40 - 00:22:25:44
are powerless, at all.
00:22:25:44 - 00:22:28:44
Plenty of them still have large audiences.
00:22:28:46 - 00:22:30:48
There's more opportunity
to reach new audiences,
00:22:30:48 - 00:22:32:40
but harder to reach broad audiences.
00:22:32:40 - 00:22:35:40
That's just mostly
because algorithmic driven,
00:22:36:28 - 00:22:39:19
we live in an algorithmic driven
news environment.
00:22:39:19 - 00:22:41:55
And the algorithm is obviously increasing
media fragmentation.
00:22:41:55 - 00:22:43:42
It's the story of our time.
00:22:43:42 - 00:22:46:22
It means that, you know,
if I have a show or a podcast
00:22:46:22 - 00:22:49:21
or a newsletter
that people like, in my lane, it can reach
00:22:49:30 - 00:22:52:30
just the right number of people
and no more.
00:22:52:43 - 00:22:56:19
And, that has to do with passive and,
and active news consumption.
00:22:56:53 - 00:22:58:37
There's new creators
that are popping up every day,
00:22:58:37 - 00:23:01:48
but increasingly there's
an established set of digital voices
00:23:01:48 - 00:23:03:19
forming a new establishment.
00:23:03:19 - 00:23:05:54
We look we saw that a little bit
in the podcast charts.
00:23:05:54 - 00:23:09:18
I mean, if you take a look here,
you know, we've got, the, you know,
00:23:09:21 - 00:23:14:53
diary of a CEO, which was on the top of,
the podcast charts, across platforms.
00:23:15:20 - 00:23:18:31
You know, we've got folks like Joe Rogan,
which who does obviously.
00:23:18:31 - 00:23:20:53
Well, there's a lot of ink
that's been spilled over that.
00:23:20:53 - 00:23:22:41
And some of these other podcasts
that are here
00:23:22:41 - 00:23:26:13
are the same ones that pop up on the top
of the podcast charts as well, in various
00:23:26:13 - 00:23:26:49
different order.
00:23:26:49 - 00:23:30:43
So I increasingly feel,
like some of these folks represent,
00:23:31:13 - 00:23:34:01
kind of a new establishment of,
00:23:34:01 - 00:23:37:58
of of important individuals and voices
in the media landscape in the same way
00:23:37:58 - 00:23:42:13
that people who used to host talk
shows or, news programs did, in the past.
00:23:43:31 - 00:23:46:25
And increasingly, you see the new players
looking like the old players,
00:23:46:25 - 00:23:48:18
the old players
looking like the new players.
00:23:48:18 - 00:23:52:07
So right up in the top right,
we have the cast of the Fantastic Four.
00:23:52:30 - 00:23:55:21
In a cooking video for the New York Times
a few months ago,
00:23:55:21 - 00:23:59:18
I noticed that the times had, had on
its Instagram feed was serving me,
00:23:59:49 - 00:24:02:51
Aubrey Plaza
as she was promoting, a new movie.
00:24:02:51 - 00:24:05:22
And she was in, in a, in the test kitchen
cooking some stuff.
00:24:05:22 - 00:24:06:34
I thought, oh, that's that's fine.
00:24:06:34 - 00:24:09:35
They, they booked a celebrity,
on the New York Times, you know,
00:24:09:35 - 00:24:12:35
test, recipe
kind of test kitchen situation.
00:24:12:39 - 00:24:15:49
And then I noticed, a few more instances
where there were celebrities
00:24:15:49 - 00:24:18:06
that were popping up in the New York Times
Instagram feed.
00:24:18:06 - 00:24:19:07
I thought, What is this?
00:24:19:07 - 00:24:22:10
Turns out what they've done is created
basically a morning cooking show.
00:24:22:16 - 00:24:25:12
This looks very similar
to how people used to go on Rachael
00:24:25:12 - 00:24:28:21
Ray or morning television celebrities,
and they would cook something.
00:24:28:46 - 00:24:30:00
Only this is on the New York Times.
00:24:30:00 - 00:24:32:29
It's being, it's being shown on YouTube.
00:24:32:29 - 00:24:33:43
It's performing very well.
00:24:33:43 - 00:24:37:44
And it's also driving,
driving, engagement on social media.
00:24:37:53 - 00:24:39:39
This is an instance
where the times basically woke
00:24:39:39 - 00:24:41:05
up and said, we can do morning television.
00:24:41:05 - 00:24:43:59
Now we don't have to worry.
We have distribution, via platforms.
00:24:43:59 - 00:24:47:44
We have distribution via our own platform,
and we have a very large audience
00:24:47:44 - 00:24:49:30
and people want to engage with it.
00:24:49:30 - 00:24:51:29
So they've gotten actually into that game.
00:24:51:29 - 00:24:55:34
If you look down here, this is,
this is TBN, the, the program
00:24:55:34 - 00:24:58:33
that I was, talking to show
that I was talking about earlier.
00:24:58:37 - 00:25:00:48
This basically could sub in for CNBC.
00:25:00:48 - 00:25:01:48
It looks very similar.
00:25:01:48 - 00:25:03:19
They've got a ticker at the bottom.
00:25:03:19 - 00:25:05:04
They're going over the news
events of the day.
00:25:05:04 - 00:25:06:23
They're talking about it.
00:25:06:23 - 00:25:10:27
It's meant to look like a slicker
version, of CNBC.
00:25:10:36 - 00:25:11:59
And if you look down here at the Midas
search,
00:25:11:59 - 00:25:14:44
I don't know how many people in the room
watch MSNBC.
00:25:14:44 - 00:25:15:40
This is from Midas Touch.
00:25:15:40 - 00:25:20:12
They're a, increasingly popular,
kind of liberal center left,
00:25:20:42 - 00:25:24:31
publication mostly does, podcasts
and stuff on, on YouTube.
00:25:24:38 - 00:25:29:06
They basically have just copied,
MSNBC's, graphics package.
00:25:29:18 - 00:25:32:13
Like, if I was MSNBC, I would think like,
this is literally,
00:25:32:13 - 00:25:34:28
you know, almost, infringement.
00:25:34:28 - 00:25:36:28
It's meant to look exactly like it.
00:25:36:28 - 00:25:39:28
So you see instances
where the new players,
00:25:39:46 - 00:25:43:41
are increasingly trying to crowd, in
on the old players, steal,
00:25:43:58 - 00:25:47:44
some things with distribution, via via
the platforms.
00:25:47:44 - 00:25:51:33
And you see some of the old players
saying we can do, digital, digitally
00:25:51:33 - 00:25:52:30
savvy things as well.
00:25:52:30 - 00:25:57:38
And we can also take pages out of the book
of, other old legacy media outlets.
00:25:57:38 - 00:25:58:51
I thought that
that was really interesting.
00:26:00:12 - 00:26:00:50
What's coming?
00:26:00:50 - 00:26:02:04
Obviously.
00:26:02:04 - 00:26:04:56
I it's on the minds of everybody
in this room.
00:26:04:56 - 00:26:07:56
I'm sure you've been at every conference
has the obligatory,
00:26:08:14 - 00:26:11:18
I thing, but it's something
that's on the top of the minds of people
00:26:11:18 - 00:26:13:20
in the media business. As well.
00:26:13:20 - 00:26:17:14
I has already had a major impact
on search traffic to publishers.
00:26:17:14 - 00:26:21:18
It's really, tanked traffic to,
to media publications.
00:26:21:51 - 00:26:26:26
And, we see that, we see that,
across the board, leading U.S.
00:26:26:26 - 00:26:29:44
online publishers reported an average fall
in referral traffic from Google
00:26:29:44 - 00:26:33:43
search of 10% in
May to June, compared to a year earlier.
00:26:33:43 - 00:26:37:04
That's just going to continue to fall
as people start ask, continue to ask.
00:26:37:04 - 00:26:40:43
ChatGPT, hey, what's the best
I don't know, suitcase.
00:26:41:12 - 00:26:44:48
And that's really meaningful
for for media publications as well.
00:26:44:48 - 00:26:49:30
You know, search used to be used to
basically, depending on the publication,
00:26:49:36 - 00:26:52:45
take up like 30% of traffic,
some more, some a little bit less.
00:26:53:04 - 00:26:55:43
But it was a meaningful, source
of revenue and a meaningful,
00:26:56:40 - 00:26:57:05
driver of
00:26:57:05 - 00:27:00:05
traffic and a lot of publications built,
00:27:00:25 - 00:27:03:37
built, products around, around search.
00:27:03:57 - 00:27:07:40
And you're going to continue
to see, publishers, move away from that in
00:27:07:40 - 00:27:08:23
some cases.
00:27:08:23 - 00:27:11:30
And you're going to continue
to see publishers, do deals with,
00:27:11:50 - 00:27:14:50
AI companies because they see
that this habit is changing.
00:27:15:15 - 00:27:18:35
And, you know, the last point here,
I was reading a different survey,
00:27:18:44 - 00:27:20:10
that came out earlier this year,
00:27:20:10 - 00:27:24:04
which was talking or that came out earlier
this week, about how Gen Alpha
00:27:24:04 - 00:27:28:14
just they don't distinguish between,
a lot of this already AI is built.
00:27:28:32 - 00:27:30:43
So much into their lives.
00:27:30:43 - 00:27:34:11
And that's going to shape, things
going forward in a way that we don't,
00:27:34:44 - 00:27:37:11
haven't even thought of yet.
00:27:37:11 - 00:27:38:50
So what does this mean for you guys?
00:27:38:50 - 00:27:40:11
I think you guys have a harder job.
00:27:40:11 - 00:27:42:39
It seems like maybe than, previously,
00:27:44:08 - 00:27:45:53
which, I don't envy you for.
00:27:45:53 - 00:27:48:53
But, for me as a media, reporter
and someone who talks and thinks about it,
00:27:48:53 - 00:27:51:09
this is so fascinating and interesting.
00:27:51:09 - 00:27:54:07
And I'm interested to see how you guys
puzzle through this.
00:27:54:07 - 00:27:57:07
But, and I'm sure this is stuff
that you guys have already experienced,
00:27:57:27 - 00:28:00:12
in, in interacting
with people in new media.
00:28:00:12 - 00:28:03:34
But it's worth mentioning new media
creators can, present,
00:28:03:34 - 00:28:07:06
obviously, a huge opportunity
and also increased risk.
00:28:07:06 - 00:28:09:37
Right.
They can be friendlier than legacy media.
00:28:09:37 - 00:28:12:40
They're not bound by the same sort
of ethical, structures.
00:28:12:40 - 00:28:15:44
Like, if I, you know, take a payment
from some sort of
00:28:15:44 - 00:28:19:07
company, and then, write
about that company in a favorable way.
00:28:19:11 - 00:28:20:48
Chances are I will not be staying,
00:28:20:48 - 00:28:23:47
standing on the stage next year,
and I will not have a job.
00:28:24:07 - 00:28:25:23
Creators.
00:28:25:23 - 00:28:28:10
Can do that,
with no sort of, qualms and problems.
00:28:28:10 - 00:28:32:24
They can even lean into that, and people
don't, necessarily blame them as much.
00:28:32:24 - 00:28:34:51
That even applies to people
who are news influencers, too.
00:28:35:56 - 00:28:38:29
And, you
know, oftentimes a lot of these folks
00:28:38:29 - 00:28:41:59
are not obviously trained
in traditional journalism, so they can,
00:28:43:00 - 00:28:45:28
they're not driven by the same incentives
that people like.
00:28:45:28 - 00:28:48:27
I am, I'm still driven in an interview by,
00:28:49:03 - 00:28:50:08
by two things, basically.
00:28:50:08 - 00:28:51:18
Is it is it interesting?
00:28:51:18 - 00:28:54:00
Is it still for a podcast interview
in particular? Is it interesting?
00:28:54:00 - 00:28:56:46
Is it going to keep people listening
when they could be doing anything else?
00:28:56:46 - 00:28:58:06
And am I breaking news?
00:28:58:06 - 00:29:01:30
And I orient my questions
around those two things with the creator?
00:29:01:30 - 00:29:03:00
The the incentives may be different.
00:29:03:00 - 00:29:05:32
It may be
how do I kind of please my audience?
00:29:05:32 - 00:29:08:54
And, you know, a lot of them
are not necessarily in the news making
00:29:08:54 - 00:29:12:37
and breaking business in the same way
that traditional, journalists are.
00:29:12:53 - 00:29:14:23
But of course, you know, the creates
00:29:14:23 - 00:29:17:32
unpredictable situations
because sometimes a friendly creator
00:29:17:32 - 00:29:19:03
can pull up to an interview and say,
you know what?
00:29:19:03 - 00:29:21:11
I've actually got
a very interesting question to ask.
00:29:21:11 - 00:29:24:47
I don't know if you guys, paid attention
to this, but, about a month ago,
00:29:25:28 - 00:29:29:42
someone from his, from Gavin Newsom
staff sent me, something, which was,
00:29:30:21 - 00:29:33:21
Gavin Newsom, governor of California,
obviously in state that we're in,
00:29:33:36 - 00:29:35:47
on Twitch with a,
00:29:35:47 - 00:29:39:10
with a Twitch streamer
named Connor Eats pants.
00:29:39:51 - 00:29:44:03
And, during the, during the during
the stream, which lasted about 30 minutes.
00:29:44:34 - 00:29:48:51
Gavin was, basically talking
about all kinds of very serious policies.
00:29:48:51 - 00:29:51:25
He was talking about immigration.
He was talking about the economy.
00:29:51:25 - 00:29:54:25
He was talking about
where Democrats went wrong in 2024,
00:29:54:49 - 00:29:57:27
like in a very meaningful setting,
all while he's playing Fortnite
00:29:57:27 - 00:30:01:10
and like, jumping over stuff and shooting
guys with, this guy and I
00:30:01:12 - 00:30:04:10
what was what I was struck by
was that this streamer,
00:30:04:10 - 00:30:08:20
was peppering him with real questions,
like, I think that I'm, I know that they,
00:30:08:25 - 00:30:10:31
his staff knew
that he was going to get asked some stuff
00:30:10:31 - 00:30:13:34
because this was somebody who had talked
about politics in the past, but
00:30:13:34 - 00:30:18:04
I was struck by how little deference
he had compared to someone in my position.
00:30:18:38 - 00:30:22:57
You know, might not just totally interrupt
or, you know, cut in or whatnot.
00:30:23:21 - 00:30:26:44
You know, we might want to get
the full answer, and we might, you know,
00:30:27:45 - 00:30:30:30
we might have some sort of regard for that
because maybe I've talked to him again.
00:30:30:30 - 00:30:31:31
This guy definitely didn't.
00:30:31:31 - 00:30:33:23
And so we asked a lot
of really interesting questions.
00:30:33:23 - 00:30:36:25
I actually think he made some news,
which I don't even know if that was really
00:30:36:25 - 00:30:37:42
what he was trying to do.
00:30:37:42 - 00:30:39:08
But I found it to be really,
really interesting.
00:30:39:08 - 00:30:42:53
So, it creates these opportunities,
obviously, and also these risks.
00:30:42:53 - 00:30:44:53
And on the opportunity side,
00:30:44:53 - 00:30:47:50
I saw a lot of posts, people
who were on there who were just like,
00:30:47:50 - 00:30:51:15
dude, I can't believe Gavin Newsom is
the governor is on the stream right now.
00:30:51:15 - 00:30:53:03
Like he got some credibility,
00:30:53:03 - 00:30:56:31
from younger people, which may come in
handy, in a few years for him.
00:30:57:50 - 00:30:59:53
When it comes to traditional, and digital
00:30:59:53 - 00:31:02:54
media, the new crop of journalists
are younger and less experienced.
00:31:02:54 - 00:31:05:54
I see that now as somebody
who is involved in a,
00:31:05:56 - 00:31:10:45
in some way, in managing a few people,
as scary as it might seem, it's,
00:31:11:19 - 00:31:14:32
you know, a lot of there's
just a lot fewer jobs and there's a lot
00:31:14:32 - 00:31:16:36
less of a training pipeline.
00:31:16:36 - 00:31:20:30
As many of you might know, you know,
when I graduated from college, about,
00:31:21:13 - 00:31:25:05
12 years ago now, the advice that I got
even in that time was, oh, go work at,
00:31:25:26 - 00:31:26:28
you know, I studied journalism.
00:31:26:28 - 00:31:29:44
They said, go work at a small local paper
somewhere and climb up the ranks.
00:31:29:44 - 00:31:32:20
And then maybe in ten years,
you'll be able to jump over to wherever.
00:31:32:20 - 00:31:36:23
And, you know, they'll pay you, like,
you know, $25,000 a year on some place.
00:31:36:23 - 00:31:38:36
I was like, that sounds terrible.
00:31:38:36 - 00:31:40:25
So I decided not to do that.
00:31:40:25 - 00:31:42:13
But that track doesn't
even exist for anybody anymore.
00:31:42:13 - 00:31:43:43
Nobody is doing that.
00:31:43:43 - 00:31:47:12
The new crop of journalists are,
there's just there are fewer of them.
00:31:47:41 - 00:31:49:21
But they're
they tend to be more passionate.
00:31:49:21 - 00:31:51:16
They know, the environment that they're,
00:31:51:16 - 00:31:53:22
that they're getting into,
but they just don't they haven't
00:31:53:22 - 00:31:57:21
had as many as much of the training,
that people, even people my age,
00:31:58:02 - 00:31:58:50
may have gotten
00:32:00:05 - 00:32:01:33
and, and so,
00:32:01:33 - 00:32:05:31
I think in my experience, they tend to be,
like younger and less experienced.
00:32:05:32 - 00:32:08:29
Maybe you can take advantage of that,
but also maybe it's,
00:32:08:29 - 00:32:12:13
but also it creates some headaches,
because they haven't put in the reps,
00:32:12:39 - 00:32:15:40
you know, on a smaller stage, as much,
00:32:16:23 - 00:32:19:45
the other thing that's important to note
here is that commodity news is dying.
00:32:20:28 - 00:32:25:08
I don't know if you guys find this,
in, in interacting with journalists, but,
00:32:25:41 - 00:32:29:20
you know, for me, there is very,
very little incentive to write anything,
00:32:29:49 - 00:32:33:14
or produce anything that
one of my competitors, has, has produced.
00:32:33:39 - 00:32:36:55
Just because, there's, there's
the economics don't really support it.
00:32:37:44 - 00:32:41:16
The, the,
the business has shrunk, in a lot of ways.
00:32:41:23 - 00:32:46:09
And so there's increasing incentives,
and a lot of rewards for having
00:32:46:09 - 00:32:50:39
the exclusive and very, very little,
for writing the second or the third story.
00:32:51:04 - 00:32:51:36
Particularly.
00:32:51:36 - 00:32:54:04
And part of that
also has to do with a lot of these,
00:32:54:04 - 00:32:57:03
some of these outlets, some of the legacy
media outlets have actually grown.
00:32:57:32 - 00:32:59:09
The New York Times is bigger than ever.
00:32:59:09 - 00:33:01:48
And there's more people, journalists
working in that newsroom,
00:33:01:48 - 00:33:03:16
than there used to be.
00:33:03:16 - 00:33:06:16
And, you can cover a broader, section,
00:33:06:30 - 00:33:09:14
you know, of, of, of turf.
00:33:09:14 - 00:33:11:18
Some of the bigger players can do that.
00:33:11:18 - 00:33:12:13
But but,
00:33:12:13 - 00:33:16:29
anyway, it just creates fewer incentives
on, on and, for, for commodity news.
00:33:16:29 - 00:33:19:29
So if somebody in this room
reached out and said, hey, if you covered,
00:33:19:36 - 00:33:22:52
our thing that we released yesterday
or whatever, I'm like, why would I do that
00:33:22:52 - 00:33:23:51
if it's out there yesterday?
00:33:25:46 - 00:33:27:57
Is the audience consuming actively
or passively?
00:33:27:57 - 00:33:29:31
Is it in feeds or is it opt in?
00:33:29:31 - 00:33:30:05
I think this is where
00:33:30:05 - 00:33:33:05
I really want to end,
because there's been a really big shift.
00:33:33:21 - 00:33:37:33
There is a divergence between, the news,
the media companies
00:33:37:33 - 00:33:41:27
that are aiming, in the news space
that are aiming at passive versus
00:33:41:27 - 00:33:44:26
active, news consumers,
passive consumption.
00:33:44:39 - 00:33:48:11
What I mean by that is, you know, stuff
that's popping up on somebody's feed.
00:33:48:11 - 00:33:51:11
If you're going on Instagram Reels
and you're kind of scrolling through,
00:33:51:24 - 00:33:54:52
that that to me,
I consider to be passive, news content.
00:33:54:52 - 00:33:56:39
It's somebody has found it
and they're like, oh, yeah,
00:33:56:39 - 00:33:58:41
I'll look at this
before I look at something else.
00:33:58:41 - 00:34:01:58
That's a very different business,
of course, than, people,
00:34:02:27 - 00:34:05:00
audiences that are, active, consumers.
00:34:05:00 - 00:34:08:00
It's a small it's a larger
the passive audiences,
00:34:08:05 - 00:34:10:51
represent a larger share, in my view.
00:34:10:51 - 00:34:15:24
Whereas the active audiences, I think,
represent a smaller but more engaged,
00:34:16:47 - 00:34:18:02
engaged audience,
00:34:18:02 - 00:34:20:48
and oftentimes content, that's
00:34:20:48 - 00:34:25:07
we organizations, journalists,
are creating content for, for both.
00:34:25:30 - 00:34:26:19
I'll give you an example.
00:34:26:19 - 00:34:30:45
So my newsletter, that I publish
on Sunday nights that I consider to be,
00:34:30:59 - 00:34:33:03
the readers of that,
I consider to be active.
00:34:33:03 - 00:34:35:56
They've signed up,
they put their email in, they've,
00:34:35:56 - 00:34:37:56
somehow gotten it
not to go to the spam filter.
00:34:37:56 - 00:34:40:56
Those people actually really care
about what I have to say.
00:34:41:14 - 00:34:43:52
A clip of our podcast, an interview.
00:34:43:52 - 00:34:46:20
We had Alice, the chef,
Allison Roman, on the show,
00:34:46:20 - 00:34:49:20
last week or two weeks ago,
maybe a few weeks ago. God.
00:34:49:52 - 00:34:52:19
And, you know,
00:34:52:19 - 00:34:55:30
that got a lot of,
the clips of that show got a lot of views,
00:34:55:30 - 00:35:00:16
but it's not by anybody who was coming
to, subscribe to our newsletters.
00:35:00:16 - 00:35:04:17
And I think that, or even our podcast
in some, in some instances.
00:35:04:17 - 00:35:07:17
So I think that there's, there's
an important kind of distinction and,
00:35:07:42 - 00:35:09:51
different media organizations
aim at different audiences.
00:35:09:51 - 00:35:10:51
semafor.
00:35:10:51 - 00:35:13:20
You know, we are kind of we see ourselves
as like a top of the funnel.
00:35:13:20 - 00:35:17:42
We're going for a small, engaged
audience, versus kind of that big mass
00:35:17:42 - 00:35:20:55
audience and that, and I think that
that's, that's an important distinction.
00:35:21:43 - 00:35:25:01
Often,
thank you guys so much, for listening.
00:35:25:01 - 00:35:26:49
I think we've got a few minutes
for questions.
00:35:26:49 - 00:35:27:39
I've got about ten.
00:35:27:39 - 00:35:29:56
It's telling me on this clock down here.
00:35:29:56 - 00:35:31:17
But I think that that's,
00:35:31:17 - 00:35:33:30
that kind of sums up how I'm thinking
about the media landscape.
00:35:33:30 - 00:35:35:14
And I'm curious
to hear what you guys think. Thank you.
00:35:40:27 - 00:35:41:37
So I get.
00:35:41:37 - 00:35:44:37
Oh, you want to go first
00:35:44:48 - 00:35:45:38
to stand off?
00:35:45:38 - 00:35:47:42
You've had a very electric performance.
00:35:47:42 - 00:35:48:44
I was worried about the opposite.
00:35:48:44 - 00:35:51:07
Thank you very much.
00:35:51:07 - 00:35:53:46
Danny Gainer from signal,
I thought was great.
00:35:53:46 - 00:35:56:33
I guess I'd like to ask
about the value of owned content.
00:35:56:33 - 00:35:59:36
You have people in this room representing
big brands and agencies that work
00:35:59:36 - 00:36:02:36
with big brands, tech companies
like myself.
00:36:02:58 - 00:36:03:34
It's interesting,
00:36:03:34 - 00:36:07:54
when looking at your presentation,
what wasn't in it was the long form
00:36:07:54 - 00:36:10:54
article that you spent four months
working with the journalist on.
00:36:10:54 - 00:36:14:26
What wasn't in your presentation
was really working on those words
00:36:14:26 - 00:36:18:24
in the 10-K, or having a sick 80 page
sustainability report.
00:36:19:00 - 00:36:21:34
And so I just want to understand,
in your view,
00:36:21:34 - 00:36:24:54
if you were creating own content,
particularly, as I understand in the data,
00:36:25:39 - 00:36:28:55
very influential in shaping Geo
or what they call a yeah,
00:36:29:08 - 00:36:31:55
the perplexity is the ChatGPT
and the clauses World Service
00:36:31:55 - 00:36:33:55
saying the AI summaries
that you referenced
00:36:33:55 - 00:36:37:06
that are driving down traffic
but increasingly grabbing eyeballs.
00:36:37:22 - 00:36:41:09
If you were a big brand,
if you were a Nike where I used to work,
00:36:41:21 - 00:36:44:46
how would you think about
creating own content in a way,
00:36:45:29 - 00:36:46:57
that's really sticky to your audiences?
00:36:46:57 - 00:36:48:24
Because what I noticed here
00:36:48:24 - 00:36:50:22
on all your podcasts
and all the YouTube shows
00:36:50:22 - 00:36:53:15
is that they were done by individuals,
not brand. Yep.
00:36:53:15 - 00:36:56:55
It's it's individual people
and influencers that you should be working
00:36:56:55 - 00:36:58:23
with. Go a little bit deeper.
00:36:58:23 - 00:37:01:10
If you were consulting me as a big brand,
how would you do better?
00:37:01:10 - 00:37:03:30
My my answer to that is,
I think that the people
00:37:03:30 - 00:37:06:30
who are consuming your owned content
mostly are your competitors.
00:37:06:39 - 00:37:07:51
I don't think it's like that.
00:37:07:51 - 00:37:12:49
There aren't that many examples of,
you know, beyond the trade press, of
00:37:12:49 - 00:37:16:02
I think that there is, there's different
kind of marketing stuff that you can do.
00:37:16:02 - 00:37:18:58
Obviously, there's plenty of brands
that have engaging social feeds,
00:37:18:58 - 00:37:21:24
and some of that will feed
into kind of coverage.
00:37:21:24 - 00:37:24:28
And, you know, people will put out,
you know, they've seen, you know,
00:37:24:34 - 00:37:28:03
you have CEO, you'll have your own podcast
in or whatever.
00:37:28:17 - 00:37:32:07
My, in my experience,
and the thing that I kind of,
00:37:32:12 - 00:37:37:19
I kind of see and as a journalist,
I, I think about is, I think that the,
00:37:37:20 - 00:37:39:42
I think that owned content
largely is being consumed
00:37:39:42 - 00:37:43:22
by a very, in the most, for the most part
by a very small number of people.
00:37:43:22 - 00:37:44:50
Now, when it comes to the AI stuff,
00:37:44:50 - 00:37:46:47
I think you would probably know
better than I would.
00:37:46:47 - 00:37:51:13
But, most of the big ChatGPT,
you know, perplexity,
00:37:51:33 - 00:37:52:12
some of these,
00:37:52:12 - 00:37:54:25
some of these big companies,
most of the information
00:37:54:25 - 00:37:57:57
that they are putting when somebody
queries, they're more heavily weighting,
00:37:58:21 - 00:38:01:30
traditional a trusted news outlet
like the New York Times
00:38:01:30 - 00:38:03:27
or like the Journal,
or something like that.
00:38:03:27 - 00:38:06:30
So I think that clips
and the kind of, appearances and legacy
00:38:06:41 - 00:38:09:46
in media, legacy
media is clearly valuable in that sense.
00:38:09:46 - 00:38:11:52
I'd be curious to hear,
what you think about that.
00:38:11:52 - 00:38:13:18
But when it comes to,
00:38:13:18 - 00:38:16:05
when it comes to stuff
that you're creating, yourself, I,
00:38:16:05 - 00:38:18:29
I, I think in general,
00:38:18:29 - 00:38:22:30
unless it's incredibly engaging, it's
very hard to reach, to reach people now
00:38:22:37 - 00:38:25:37
as, as the open web kind of, goes away
00:38:25:37 - 00:38:28:37
and, and information
comes primarily to people through feeds.
00:38:28:39 - 00:38:32:18
If you've got a really great 80 page
report that can go viral on TikTok,
00:38:32:18 - 00:38:33:12
that's awesome.
00:38:33:12 - 00:38:36:14
And maybe you'll figure out, like,
maybe that will defy this rule.
00:38:36:14 - 00:38:38:12
But in my experience, in general,
00:38:38:12 - 00:38:41:57
the people who are going through those,
I think are other people in your business.
00:38:41:57 - 00:38:43:00
Maybe not.
00:38:43:00 - 00:38:44:32
And if that's the people
you want to reach, obviously.
00:38:44:32 - 00:38:46:20
And oftentimes you do, that's great.
00:38:46:20 - 00:38:50:22
But if you're trying to reach the broader
public, I think, it's a little trickier
00:38:50:22 - 00:38:51:54
unless you have something
that's really engaging
00:38:53:21 - 00:38:55:28
because you're competing with people's
attention for like with Netflix.
00:38:55:28 - 00:38:55:50
Right?
00:38:55:50 - 00:38:57:36
Like you're competing with everything else
00:38:57:36 - 00:38:59:38
that's on the phone
that's more interesting.
00:38:59:38 - 00:39:02:38
Anyway, so that's I don't
I hope that that answers your question.
00:39:03:25 - 00:39:04:46
So here's my question.
00:39:04:46 - 00:39:07:27
You're a classically trained journalist.
00:39:07:27 - 00:39:10:09
We are classically trained communicators.
00:39:10:09 - 00:39:12:28
There used to be,
00:39:12:28 - 00:39:17:24
culture among us and between us
that set out certain rules and guidelines.
00:39:17:24 - 00:39:20:24
There were things like off the record
and on background,
00:39:20:26 - 00:39:24:59
there were, ways that you could,
we distribute a press release
00:39:24:59 - 00:39:27:59
and you would read it and decide
if you were going to write about it.
00:39:28:10 - 00:39:31:21
There were, interviews
that were set up in traditional ways.
00:39:31:48 - 00:39:33:19
Press conferences.
00:39:33:19 - 00:39:34:51
How are those rules?
00:39:34:51 - 00:39:38:39
Give us some guidance on how you feel like
those rules have changed, and how we
00:39:38:39 - 00:39:43:18
should comport ourselves as communications
professionals dealing with the media,
00:39:43:33 - 00:39:47:55
an increasing number of whom
are not trained to respect those, rules.
00:39:47:55 - 00:39:51:16
And I think I think you have to
I think when it comes to anybody outside
00:39:51:16 - 00:39:55:10
of a legacy, organization
who are held accountable to those rules,
00:39:55:52 - 00:39:59:02
I think that you might have to
I think you're going to have to walk them
00:39:59:02 - 00:39:59:53
through it a lot more.
00:39:59:53 - 00:40:02:49
And also kind of keep in mind
that the incentives are different, right?
00:40:02:49 - 00:40:06:14
If I was, a reporter,
if I'm a reporter at a legacy media outlet
00:40:06:14 - 00:40:10:38
or if I'm a reporter at some of for write
my, I'm accountable to my audience.
00:40:10:38 - 00:40:12:51
But I'm also still
there's a, there's a big structure,
00:40:13:54 - 00:40:16:54
you know, that I'm also I'm accountable
to to our editor in chief, I'm accountable
00:40:16:54 - 00:40:20:35
to, to many other our managing editors,
you know, various other people like that.
00:40:21:04 - 00:40:24:34
The incentives for, like, a creator
who has a really cool newsletter,
00:40:24:59 - 00:40:28:08
about a specific to even a trade one
like about a specific topic.
00:40:28:21 - 00:40:30:50
They are accountable to their subscribers.
00:40:30:50 - 00:40:31:35
That's it.
00:40:31:35 - 00:40:34:15
So that that is the only thing
that that matters to them.
00:40:34:15 - 00:40:38:23
That could mean, you know,
saying something that you shared with them
00:40:38:32 - 00:40:40:15
off the record and saying, you know what?
00:40:40:15 - 00:40:41:43
Actually, our audience has loved this.
00:40:41:43 - 00:40:44:35
And, you know,
I got a lot of subscribers out of this.
00:40:44:35 - 00:40:47:35
And so, you know, they might
they have their incentives.
00:40:47:48 - 00:40:51:01
The people that they are responsible
to, oftentimes is audience.
00:40:51:01 - 00:40:54:01
And so I think, it's obviously
a lot more challenging,
00:40:54:34 - 00:40:57:11
for and it's obvious
and it's a lot more a press conferences,
00:40:57:11 - 00:40:58:06
a lot more challenging as well.
00:40:58:06 - 00:41:01:51
I'm not sure if you've maybe
noticed this, but, I to give an example,
00:41:01:58 - 00:41:06:35
I was I had coffee earlier this year
with someone who works,
00:41:06:52 - 00:41:10:34
in Adam Schiff's office,
and I was asking him, I was asking
00:41:10:56 - 00:41:13:25
I was asking him if it wasn't,
it was kind of a general briefing.
00:41:13:25 - 00:41:15:29
So it's. I feel fine sharing it.
00:41:15:29 - 00:41:17:12
I was asking him like,
oh, who are the people?
00:41:17:12 - 00:41:18:22
Who are the reporters who are, like,
00:41:18:22 - 00:41:20:37
calling you every day
to get a scoop on something
00:41:20:37 - 00:41:23:30
or just checking in
to see what you guys are doing? Next week.
00:41:23:30 - 00:41:25:55
And this guy was like,
there's no there's no print.
00:41:25:55 - 00:41:28:46
Like newspapers,
print people, you know, to write articles.
00:41:28:46 - 00:41:30:00
There's basically nobody,
00:41:31:10 - 00:41:33:21
it's, you know,
he's like, I still get a lot of inquiries
00:41:33:21 - 00:41:37:35
from local television news,
which, has been kind of kept afloat, by,
00:41:37:54 - 00:41:41:18
political advertising and, you know, some
of the and sports and things like that.
00:41:41:57 - 00:41:44:50
But there's just nobody there's
fewer people at the press conferences.
00:41:44:50 - 00:41:48:20
There's more creators and independent,
you know, individuals, but there's fewer,
00:41:48:31 - 00:41:51:27
traditional reporters
and, there's pros and cons to it,
00:41:51:27 - 00:41:54:47
which is that, you know, they find it's
easier to get there, you know,
00:41:55:21 - 00:41:57:52
it's easier
to get information out in a friendly way.
00:41:57:52 - 00:42:00:54
But also, a lot of these people are not
driven again, by the same incentive.
00:42:00:54 - 00:42:03:53
So I guess I would just say
the only advice that I could give is just,
00:42:04:15 - 00:42:08:20
you know, maybe confirm, that
when you say off the record, you know, it
00:42:08:20 - 00:42:11:37
means, definitely I won't be sharing
this information or whatever.
00:42:11:37 - 00:42:14:37
You might just have to you might have to
teach the rules to some of these folks.
00:42:15:08 - 00:42:16:57
As annoying as I'm sure that might seem.
00:42:16:57 - 00:42:18:42
Not to me, though.
You don't have to teach me.
00:42:23:24 - 00:42:23:47
Sure.
00:42:23:47 - 00:42:25:30
Yeah. You've got a. Microphone.
00:42:25:30 - 00:42:26:42
Hey, Rob, from the Harris poll.
00:42:26:42 - 00:42:29:45
First off, Max, huge fan of the podcast.
00:42:29:45 - 00:42:31:57
I think you guys would do a great job
if anybody doesn't listen to it.
00:42:31:57 - 00:42:36:01
Like, I think it's like the definitive
interview so far with, like, Mark Lazarus.
00:42:36:01 - 00:42:36:53
I think that was excellent.
00:42:36:53 - 00:42:39:39
Thank you. Scott Galloway was,
it was excellent.
00:42:39:39 - 00:42:41:34
And then kind of throwing in
like a Malcolm Gladwell,
00:42:41:34 - 00:42:43:59
like very different perspectives
on how media is evolving.
00:42:43:59 - 00:42:48:36
So, and I would say it's part
of like the repertoire of like three where
00:42:48:47 - 00:42:50:51
I wouldn't mention them,
but you guys have done collabs
00:42:50:51 - 00:42:52:37
with like channels and with rebooting.
00:42:52:37 - 00:42:55:05
Yeah, I'm sure they're fair too.
It's fair to mention. All right.
00:42:55:05 - 00:42:57:11
The audience planted question is done.
00:42:57:11 - 00:42:59:11
It's great. We're good to go.
00:42:59:11 - 00:43:00:32
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate that.
00:43:00:32 - 00:43:01:44
And thanks for getting it.
00:43:01:44 - 00:43:02:22
No. No problem.
00:43:02:22 - 00:43:03:14
And so
00:43:03:14 - 00:43:07:22
my question that I'm going to get to is on
kind of how to rethink kind of comms.
00:43:07:22 - 00:43:10:22
And the new is it
the new media business model.
00:43:10:38 - 00:43:13:38
But I was actually surprised
by your own content answer.
00:43:13:38 - 00:43:16:59
And primarily because, you guys do,
I think a really unique job
00:43:16:59 - 00:43:20:30
in terms of how your, sponsored
or advertising with Google.
00:43:20:44 - 00:43:24:43
Yeah, we're like in, in that like it's
Google's expertise is built in
00:43:24:58 - 00:43:27:30
and it's a very direct connection
to think with Google,
00:43:27:30 - 00:43:30:14
which is a massive owned platform
for them. Yeah.
00:43:30:14 - 00:43:33:19
And it's basically like one of
the episodes was actually with Google.
00:43:33:19 - 00:43:33:37
That's right.
00:43:33:37 - 00:43:34:49
Talking through their expertise.
00:43:34:49 - 00:43:37:04
So I thought it was like anyway,
so I was just say,
00:43:37:04 - 00:43:39:30
I think there's a big old play
and I think you guys are actually right.
00:43:39:30 - 00:43:40:11
We're a part of that.
00:43:40:11 - 00:43:42:31
Yeah, I think you guys
are at the forefront of it.
00:43:42:31 - 00:43:44:12
But so my question is when you get
00:43:44:12 - 00:43:47:01
when you're looking
at like the evolving landscape right now
00:43:47:01 - 00:43:50:33
and you're in the seats of chief
communications officers, like,
00:43:50:46 - 00:43:54:09
how should people rethink relationships
with media companies?
00:43:54:09 - 00:43:55:16
What are some of the new kinds
00:43:55:16 - 00:43:59:06
of opportunities that that are emerging
that maybe didn't exist 2 or 3 years ago?
00:43:59:06 - 00:44:02:06
Well, I think to your to your point about,
00:44:02:06 - 00:44:05:16
yeah, that's that's a it's worth that's a,
that's a great that's a great point.
00:44:05:16 - 00:44:07:11
And I'll end here
because I'm almost out of time.
00:44:08:12 - 00:44:09:12
Google.
00:44:09:12 - 00:44:11:12
So we are we have, we
00:44:11:12 - 00:44:14:59
have a unique situation with our podcast,
which is that we only have one sponsor.
00:44:15:26 - 00:44:16:52
And that's, that's think with Google Now,
00:44:16:52 - 00:44:19:11
I didn't put it into the owned category
because,
00:44:19:11 - 00:44:22:30
you know, when we've discussed this,
because we, we renew our show
00:44:22:30 - 00:44:25:44
in a kind of a seasonal basis
on a seasonal basis with Google.
00:44:25:44 - 00:44:26:49
They've been very happy about it.
00:44:26:49 - 00:44:30:46
And so they've been our only sponsor for
the year and a half that we've, existed.
00:44:31:39 - 00:44:33:19
But, you know, we've also thought,
you know,
00:44:33:19 - 00:44:35:14
if they decided to pull out one day,
that'll be fine.
00:44:35:14 - 00:44:38:29
We've got other people who are interested,
in in advertising on the show.
00:44:38:29 - 00:44:41:18
They might not be as great partners
as Google has been.
00:44:41:18 - 00:44:44:41
To us, but I think it raises an important,
but but it gets at an important,
00:44:45:10 - 00:44:48:00
distinction in thing
that's, changing media as well, which is
00:44:48:00 - 00:44:51:09
I think that there's,
there is a little bit
00:44:51:09 - 00:44:54:45
more of a collapsing,
there's not as a hard of a line.
00:44:54:45 - 00:44:56:55
The line is a little
just a little bit softer
00:44:56:55 - 00:44:59:54
between the revenue side
and the editorial side.
00:45:00:14 - 00:45:03:28
You know, I think maybe even ten years
ago, an arrangement like this,
00:45:03:50 - 00:45:07:18
would have been less common, to have one
single sponsor, a tech company,
00:45:07:19 - 00:45:10:45
a company that we talk about on the show,
being our only sponsor.
00:45:10:45 - 00:45:14:30
And we have our ads are basically
just like a short, you know, question
00:45:14:30 - 00:45:18:26
and answer with, with one of their,
their, chief marketing folks.
00:45:19:07 - 00:45:22:41
And so I think that that presents
opportunities
00:45:22:41 - 00:45:26:15
for working more closely with media
organizations in more creative ways.
00:45:26:15 - 00:45:28:03
I think particularly companies like ours
00:45:28:03 - 00:45:32:16
and some of our competitors are much
more open to, that type of arrangement.
00:45:32:16 - 00:45:35:16
I think people understand that the,
00:45:35:18 - 00:45:40:15
that the business has changed so much
that you can't just
00:45:40:15 - 00:45:44:03
rely on your traditional banner print
advertising or subscriptions.
00:45:44:16 - 00:45:48:15
There's more of an openness
towards creative partnerships between,
00:45:48:42 - 00:45:52:41
between media organizations and,
and media companies, particularly
00:45:52:43 - 00:45:54:00
the ones that tend to be more forward
looking.
00:45:54:00 - 00:45:54:49
And we're really lucky
00:45:54:49 - 00:45:58:23
that we just have a great sales staff
that came up with that, which is awesome.
00:45:58:53 - 00:46:01:26
But I think that you'll be seeing more,
more of more things like that
00:46:01:26 - 00:46:03:07
in the future, as well.
00:46:03:07 - 00:46:06:34
And we continue to do it because we feel
also that it's really smart and that it,
00:46:06:59 - 00:46:08:25
it actually enhances our content.
00:46:08:25 - 00:46:09:48
We don't think it's garbage.
00:46:09:48 - 00:46:14:44
We don't have some, like, you know, code
for something, you know, that's fine too.
00:46:15:22 - 00:46:17:28
But but I think it's a really cool
and creative way of doing things.
00:46:17:28 - 00:46:20:01
So I think, to kind of
answer your question,
00:46:20:01 - 00:46:21:06
I think that there are more
00:46:21:06 - 00:46:24:58
opportunities as a media landscape shifts
as we move away from more further
00:46:24:58 - 00:46:28:55
and further away from the old model to,
have increasing
00:46:28:55 - 00:46:32:34
collaborations, and get a little bit
closer and more creative.
00:46:32:34 - 00:46:34:15
You see that with newsletter takeovers.
00:46:34:15 - 00:46:36:57
Some of the people
that I mentioned before.
00:46:36:57 - 00:46:39:48
And so I think that that may present
some opportunities for, for,
00:46:39:48 - 00:46:40:38
for folks in this room.
00:46:40:38 - 00:46:42:46
And it's obviously
been been great for us and,
00:46:42:46 - 00:46:44:32
so yeah, thanks for listening
to Pod. Really appreciate it.
00:46:45:31 - 00:46:46:20
I'm a lot of time.
00:46:46:20 - 00:46:48:54
So thank you guys very much.
This is really a pleasure.
00:46:48:54 - 00:46:50:58
Thank you. That was awesome. Thank.
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